The Autonomous Zone - proposal

[Sacco & Vanzetti]

My concern is this:

Commonly, people only post in one place. It's pretty difficult getting everyone from our region to come to this forum to engage. If there was a separate communal forum for anarcho-communists, libertarian socialists, there would be more choice but less activity.

Perhaps, long term, if another similar region wants to share space with us and tAZ, we should all migrate to a new platform.

In the meantime, this one is active-ish so I think we should build on it.

Personally, I don't mind how this particular forum is branded.

The reason for separate fora in addition to a shared one is not any kind of security but so that regions such as tAZ don't feel that we are inviting them along to our forum, but that we are making a genuine attempt to share the resources we have.

[Sacco & Vanzetti]

I think what I'm saying is this: Let's make this the shared forum and downgrade our "branding" of it appropriately.

[theyellowspot]

just my two cents, i would prefer the 3 tiered version, somethings should be kept within the tACA forum, like voting and all that.

[Loe]

I like the idea. We should seek allies of a similar conviction as ourselves. The three tiered idea sounds nice....

[FreeLandofAIM]

My apologies for my late input on the matter, I have been rushed off my feet of late.

I see no problems with this proposal going ahead S&V.

Concerning how the forum would be run, it should have a moderator from tAZ certainly, and I think the forum should be integral, so everyone can feel involved.

[workerscommunes]

My only concern is our forum's name as it suggests that it is still 'our' forum which we would be 'sharing' with them. I know the name is basically irrelevant and that we are all intellegent enough to realise that but subconciously I think it would create the idea that some users had more of a right to be there than others.

I doubt I can rename it and that is why I still think a second forum would be the ideal solution but I appreciate the potential difficulties that creating three seperate forums would entail. As long as no one from tAZ objects to joining a forum named after our region then I have no problem.

[West Mora Tau]

Hi, I'm West Mora Tau from tAZ.

I think a new forum should be created to include *all* NS anarchists. Already, The Lost Islands of the Punx have expressed their interest to be a part of such a project, I'm sure regions like Anarchy would also be interested. Why limit it to 2 regions when we could make it all inclusive. Something like the Profane Existence message board: www.profaneexistence.com/board/

Cheers, comrades
Christina.

[workerscommunes]

Here here. I personally don't care how many anarchist forums there are, like you say that's not really our concern. I was just acknowledging S&V's understandable reservations about building yet more forums.

I actually suggested a couple of posts back that this new forum should be open to anarcho-communists of all regions, not just tACA and tAZ. I definately think that would be the best course of action.

[theyellowspot]

alright, even though we don't have the time myself to bottom line it, we like the new idea of a whole forum setup for NS @s even better. we would definitely participate though.

[Walter and Theodor]

I'll register an objection as well. We haven't even got this forum off the ground and there are calls for new ones? And isn't the reason we exist here because we have 'issues' with some other kinds of anarchists (read:Libertarians)? I have about as much desire to rehash free market arguments as I have to swallow glass.

I want to throw my weight behind 'one step at a time' for the moment. We can simply create distinct areas for tAZ and for tACA on this forum and then have cross over in a related sort of non-gaming chat type stuff kind of way.

Right now we need some people to volunteer as moderators. If I understand this right the moderator of this forum isn't even in the tACA anymore? Can anyone step up and help Workers Communes out at all? I will be able to in the future but not at the moment. Sorry.

WC, am I correct to assume that there can be multiple moderators on the boards and the specific areas as well. You aren't stuck trying to deal with all this are you?

[workerscommunes]

Walter said:

And isn't the reason we exist here because we have 'issues' with some other kinds of anarchists (read:Libertarians)? I have about as much desire to rehash free market arguments as I have to swallow glass.

That's why I think this forum (like our region) should be promoted specifically as a meeting place for anarcho-communists, not 'anarchists' or 'communists' in general.

Yeah I think I can give members administrative powers, any volunteers?

[Walter and Theodor]

Clearly I need some clarification on what’s going on here.

My understanding was that the TAZ was fairly small, like us, but could use on offsite forum. S&V proposed that they could have space on this forum. Rightly or wrongly I assumed that this would simply mean that there would be a tACA section for our own regional concerns and then a TAZ section for their own regional concerns (likely UN issues) but that we would otherwise try to meld the groups in the forum. At no point have I been concerned to protect this forum for ‘us’.

I understand the argument for a new combined forum and if people are proposing we migrate that sounds relatively manageable as there aren’t that many of us. What I objected to was that it sounded like we had gone from a proposal for one shared forum to two, or even three, seperate forums. My objection that we didn’t have this one going yet was that I don’t see that there are enough people to sustain even this forum just yet and so more forums seemed kind of ill thought out.

Listening to Michelaccio’s tone, I assume that I misunderstood something along the way, and I apologize if I have only,now, confused things further.

So let me be clear. I think we should have a shared forum with the TAZ. If other anarchist regions want to share that forum as well that is just aces with me. I think we can do that here – or we can migrate to a new forum with some appropriate title. What I would continue to resist is multiplying forums.

[Sacco & Vanzetti]

Michelaccio said:

I think that there is far too much attachment to "our" forum by members of our region to make this thing work without a new forum.

Not true. The argument is about whether to use an operating forum (this one) or create another one.

Again, we have people using the argument that "our" forum is barely off the ground as an excuse for why other regions should post here. That's quite telling. We're not looking at things from the standpoint of the collective.

Not true. The point is this: This forum is currently the most active anarcho-libertarian-communist forum in Nation States. Why would we want to run the risk of losing any members who post (from whatever region) on the hope that other like-minded potential members exist somewhere out there in the wires and we can attract them to a "new" forum, which won't be "new" when we eventually find them?

So far, we've only had one person from outside the region post on the issue, and she was of the opinion that we should start a new forum.

It's a valid opinion, but that doesn't mean it's right.

A few facts about our forum: etc[/]

Look at the Anarcho Communist Alliance regional forum within NS: Hardly anyone is posting

Look at the Autonomous Zone regional forum within NS: Hardly anyone is posting

Look at the Anarchy regional forum within NS: Hardly anyone is posting

Look at the Anarchy offsite forum: Hardly anyone is posting

We should be asking ourselves how to make our forum more attractive to our own membership before we start trying to argue that other regions like the tAZ should have their own separate section here, in my opinion.

Why wouldn't tAZ (or anyone else) want to have their own section here, as tACA would have its own section here?

Again, our lack of ability to promote our own forum to our own members is not an argument to justify why we should host a general forum here, let alone presume that other regions should locate their own autonomous discussion groups here.

Michelaccio - That accusation is utterly unfounded. There has been no presumption that any other region should post here, there has been an offer to share the facility.

Nobody is suggesting that we abolish this forum. We can all post here to our own heart's content, even if there is another forum out there for everyone.

So just set one up. Why hasn't anyone done it? Why isn't it already a howling success?

If we were objective, we would have to ask ourselves how a member of another region would feel if given the choice between being granted the privilege of having a distinct section of our already existing forum, or participating in a new one.

Again, this is unnecessarily offensive language. No-one has suggested another region should be "honoured" to share the facility.

Why are we even worried about "distinct areas" for other regions? Shouldn't that be their own concern?

It is their concern. Like it or not, there are so many NS regions because people do want their own distinct areas. Why can't anarchists have distinct areas within a shared facility?

We've only heard from one person outside the region so far, and my guess would be that she speaks for many others.

I doubt very much whether she would presume to speak for any others. Others may be of the same opinion, but nothing I have heard from tAZ suggests this so far.

And for that matter, this question has been open for a few days here—why do you suppose we haven't heard more from others outside the region? Could it have something to do with the perception that it is "our" forum? I fear that it might.

It may be your fear, but there isn't any evidence to suggest that's the case.

More likely possible reasons are these:
1. I only posted this forum address in the tAZ NS Forum yesterday, with an invite to join the debate.

2. This forum isn't sufficiently known anywhere for anyone to have a perception of it being "ours" or not.

3. Anarchists are not posting in great numbers anywhere within NS as far as I can see. This is by far the most active area. Yes, it's crap numbers - but why would a completely new site get more? (Show evidence please)

Look, we should be happy about the fact that the idea came from one of our own.

Why should we be proud of that? I don't care where the idea came from.

And, frankly, I'm not thrilled to bits about being called "one of our own". S&V happen to be members of tACA, we're not owned by it.

S&V, it was a brilliant idea, and I wish that I had thought of it first.

As is being shown, I'll settle for simplicity over brilliance every day. Simplicity gets things done.

But once the idea is made public, it belongs to all of us. Let's not be vanguardist about it, trying to control it. It's already taken a life of its own beyond what S&V envisioned—we've got not only the tAZ interested, but also the Punx and who knows else. My sense is that while we're busy fretting about own inability to get our forum up and running, someone outside our region will take S&V's idea and run with it. They don't need to wait for us.

That is a stunningly bizarre series of statements:

1. Who's trying to control what?
2. Who's being vanguardist?
3. What life of its own has it taken on? A mate of a member of tAZ wants to use a shared forum also...great, let's share one that people already post on.
4. Why should we be fearful of someone taking the idea and running with it? I hope someone has the energy to set up an all-encompassing anarcho-communist forum and finds the magic to attract sufficient members for it to be self-sustaining. I'd wish them luck and, quite honestly, I'd be a little in awe of their balls (in a non-gender specific way). If it was that easy, someone would have done it already.
5. Of course no-one needs to wait for us. Why do "we" want to "own" this idea?

So why my long reply?

Because it isn't about making something that is ideologically "perfect". If we set up a new forum, who's going to be the moderator? Why can't we all be moderators?

It's about using something that's working (at least a little) and sharing it with others who may find it useful.

Because what works best is what works simplest.

Never mind which region they are from, there are more than a dozen people registered to this forum. Why can't we make life simple for them and adapt this place? Because of three letters at the beginning of the URL? Can't we make those three letters stand for something else?

We're not even called ACA anymore, we're tACA.

[West Mora Tau]

I disagree with a few points made---

If we were to create an NS wide anarchist board and invite ALL A's to take part regardless of *what sort* of anarchist they are and which region they are in, I think it would be quite lively.

I am opposed to the suggestion that such a region be exclusively anarcho-communist as this is but one form of anarchism and one which is not shared by all anarchist regions- for example, tANA is *officially* anarcho-communist, tAZ *officially* anarcho-syndicalist, Anarchy *officially* anarchist and the Lost Islands of the Punx *officially* anarcho-punk, you get my meaning. Also, why exlude other communists as well? As anarchists, we are communists, as anarchism is but one strand of communism, just as Fabianism, Marxism, Trotskyism and social-democracy supposedly are. If we can use such a forum to convince communists of competing communist ideologies to follow the anarchist path to the socialist society, which in my opinion is the only way, then we should exploit this as much as possible and even go as far as encourage universal left partiscipation within an anarchist framework. Am I at all making sense or am I just sputing crap? But anyway, that's my somewhat ambiguous vision.

Christina

[West Mora Tau]

Typo- spurting...

In any case, if tACA rejects the idea of such a forum, Comrade Tom and I are prepared to start one with or without tACA. 2 other anarchist regions, the lost islands of the punx and Sid Vicous have stated their interest. We are confident that an NS-wide anarchist network can be created succesfully.