I'm not middle class, but

[Sacco & Vanzetti]

Anarchic said:

why/how someone who is fighting for a classless society would choose to wear a classist label.

I'm not sure I want to get involved in this debate, something unsettles me about it, maybe Anarchic Tribes is right about this needless labelling of people. But I will share this personal perspective on why, sometimes, I choose to wear a classist label:

Being working class is shit. Never mind health/education/housing and all those elements which are so variable around the world - being working class is the most fucked up feeling of worthlessness.

It doesn't matter whether you have a job or don't have a job, nothing you have is yours, everything around you can be taken away at any moment. For why? Because you are a drone, an ant, you have nothing to give and no worth, your shoulder on the wheel of whatever industrial cog you happen to be turning is as disposable as toilet paper.

Middle-class isn't about a bigger house or riding ponies. Middle-class is about confidence, self-belief, an inculcated sense of personal value. That is why most managers are drawn from the middle-classes, because they truly believe they are worth it.

So, sometimes, when the bats are closing in, as a working class person you have to try to fill the gap where confidence and self-belief should be with personal anger and communal resilience.

And yes, when I really can't think of an alternative that will get me through whatever happens to be the current pestilence of frogs falling all over my plans and reminding me that I have no control over my life, I retreat into a certain quiet pride I can share as it tumbles through the ages. Because this experience is a shared experience, one which we have endured throughout our lives and our families' lives, as far back as we can see. But we have endured it together.

As Steinbeck wrote and I believe Ma said to Tom Joad: "We are the people. We go on."

[claptonpond]

Anarchic said:

What I don't understand is why/how someone who is fighting for a classless society would choose to wear a classist label.

If you're fighting for a classless society you must recognise that class currently exists. If you recognise that class exists, then you generally have some idea of which class you belong to. I think it's more a case of accepting the label than choosing to wear it.

[workerscommunes]

I agree. By acknowledging that I am 'middle class' I am acknowledging that we still live in a highly stratified and unequal society. I think if you completely reject class labels then you are denying the class-ridden nature of the world we live in and this could lessen the impetus for change.

[Fenria]

Anarchic said:

Fenria
Well done you! Wouldn't also happen to be a feminist would you?



Perhaps you could learn to be more tolerant then.



First thing is, the only hate around here seems to be coming from your direction. Second, if 'the fight' is to become the middle class, you've won.
I'm not actually sure whether to take your post seriously or if you're just messing around, but anyway, if you think as you say about 'young anarchists of today', what are you? A ye olde anarchist of yesteryear? No, I remember, you're middle class. Sorry, terrible memory from years of having been shot to bits as a result of all the suffering in order to be hardcore.



And what's that got to do with being middle class (apart fron the obvious wordly middle class back patters)?

Just asking questions. People have to ask questions in order to learn. You'd know that if you were a parent of suffering hardcore young anarchists.

Look, I'm already in a really shitty mood upon hearing that I have to endure four more miserable years of Bush, so I'll make this quick and to the point:

If you took offense to my statements, which it is obvious from your overly sarcastic an snippy reply that you did, they were not aimed at you, they were aimed at people I've met in my life who feel that if you're not sleeping on the cold wood floor having your toes gnawed at by rats, you're not down for the cause.

What I'm trying to say is that you can still be pro worker, pro health care, pro environment, and pro freedom while enjoying a few of the simply pleasures of life that may qualify you as middle class, moreso if you've worked to have them.

My job is taking care of people, not taking from them. I work hard, and thus I enjoy the few simple luxuries that my paycheck affords me, which believe me, ain't much.

I am sick and tired of being told that I'm not working hard enough for the cause because I choose to live in a house and not a squat, choose to take a shower in hot water and not rub dirt on myself to try to make myself look cool, choose to not stick safety pins through every orifice in my body to show the world my pent up angst. To me, that's not what this is about; it's about working for yourself and helping this movement succeed by positive means, not bragging or finger pointing or calling people names because they don't fit ever so neatly into your definition of anarchist.

And for the record, no, I am not a "feminist". I am, however, pro women's rights, and any man who tries to hold me down can get a swift kick to the nuts. Does that answer your question?

[Walter and Theodor]

Fenria said:

And for the record, no, I am not a "feminist". I am, however, pro women's rights, and any man who tries to hold me down can get a swift kick to the nuts. Does that answer your question?

Fenria, as I too work in the helping professions I couldn't agree with you more but this last bit confuses and saddens me...whose definition of feminism are you working with if your advocacy of women's rights and your refusal to be held down by men is anything other than 'feminism'.

Honest question! I hear young women say this increasingly and while part of me thinks its none of my business another part of me is just totally confused by the statement.

This is off topic here so if you can reply via PM or in a new thread or whatever, but I am really interested.

[allers]

.to fight ask more than fight, it ask wisdom to not becoming the monster you fight against. and here is a link
defatwas.tk/

[workerscommunes]

Don't forget there are many different schools of feminism, just as there are for anarchism and socialism. Only the authoritarian radical feminists want to see the male population reduced to a sperm bank. Most feminists (Liberal, Marxist, Anarcho, Eco, Black etc.) want liberation and equality for both men and women and an end of patriachy.

[Fenria]

Walter said:

Fenria, as I too work in the helping professions I couldn't agree with you more but this last bit confuses and saddens me...whose definition of feminism are you working with if your advocacy of women's rights and your refusal to be held down by men is anything other than 'feminism'.

Honest question! I hear young women say this increasingly and while part of me thinks its none of my business another part of me is just totally confused by the statement.

This is off topic here so if you can reply via PM or in a new thread or whatever, but I am really interested.

Honestly hon, that was really just a joke. I have a very dry sense of humor like that. Also, I have been in a very sour mood since Nov. 2nd because as you might expect, the Republican gloating is getting way out of hand, and quite in your face. As far as American politics go, I'm so blue, I'm green, so it saddens me deeply to think about all of the Iraqi civilians and American soldiers that will now die as a result of conservative dumbasses who can occupy their little minds with nothing more than the constant, irrelevant worry of gay sex, electing a man who has proven himself to be little more than a murderer by proxy. It angers me tremendously to hear them gloat about Bush, knowing his first item of business is to flatten Fallujha, screw the working man, kiss Saudi ass, destroy the environment, interfere in people's private lives, and give his rich buddies a circle jerk tax break.

Anyway, about my comment, no, I have never kicked a guy in the nuts....lol I never really would. If a man pissed me off that badly, I would spit at his feet and walk away. I love men.....I really love men ^^ In fact, if you look like an anime character (I have a thing for male anime characters) send me a pm ^^.

I'm just kind of on the defensive right now because Republicans are really such horrible, sickening, gloating, sneering, jeering bastards, and they are everywhere over here!

[Anarchic Tribes]

Fenria,
what is the reason for quoting my 'adequately sarcastic' replies out of context?
Your bitterness may not have been directed to me personally but that was certainly how it came across, considering it was your response to my initial post

I'm a worker. I'm middle class, and I'm also a leftist, and once you get out of spoiled bratt "I'm going to go sew the anarchy patch I bought at Hot Topic for $5 on my leather bomber jacket" America, you will find that most leftists are like me.

And what does this mean?:

What I'm trying to say is that you can still be pro worker, pro health care, pro environment, and pro freedom while enjoying a few of the simply pleasures of life that may qualify you as middle class, moreso if you've worked to have them.

What simple pleasures qualify one as middle class? Food & water? A warm, dry home? A loving family? Flowers in the garden? What?
And what's with the "moreso"?

My job is taking care of people, not taking from them. I work hard, and thus I enjoy the few simple luxuries that my paycheck affords me, which believe me, ain't much.

I'm not sure if I believe anything you say, but anyway,
many people work hard taking care of people and not taking from them, only to have everything taken from them so I don't understand your use of the word 'thus'. Perhaps it's a middle class thing.

Look, I don't know why you justify your position with being in a shitty mood because of your goverment when you were obviously in no better mood when you first replied.

I am sick and tired of being told that I'm not working hard enough for the cause because I choose to live in a house and not a squat, choose to take a shower in hot water and not rub dirt on myself to try to make myself look cool, choose to not stick safety pins through every orifice in my body to show the world my pent up angst. To me, that's not what this is about; it's about working for yourself and helping this movement succeed by positive means, not bragging or finger pointing or calling people names because they don't fit ever so neatly into your definition of anarchist.

What exactly does this have to do with what a middle class anarchist is? Just sounds like a lot of ranting about people that aren't as stressed out as you. Young anarchists indeed.
Rats gnawing at feet, seriously, is that what you think young anarchists are into? Or just young anarchists that deny that they are middle class? Or is it anyone that isn't middle class?
What about working class people, do they rub dirt on their skin to look cool?
I asked you before, if you are not a young anarchist what are you, an old one?

And for the record, no, I am not a "feminist". I am, however, pro women's rights, and any man who tries to hold me down can get a swift kick to the nuts. Does that answer your question?

Yes thank you, more than adequately.

I'll get back to the sexist feminists issue later.

[Anarchic Tribes]

Only the authoritarian radical feminists want to see the male population reduced to a sperm bank.

Or kicked in the nuts?

[Anarchic Tribes]

S&V, thanks for your reply. Only thing I can say about it for now, is I'm glad I'm not working class then.

Being working class is shit. Never mind health/education/housing and all those elements which are so variable around the world - being working class is the most fucked up feeling of worthlessness.

It doesn't matter whether you have a job or don't have a job, nothing you have is yours, everything around you can be taken away at any moment. For why? Because you are a drone, an ant, you have nothing to give and no worth, your shoulder on the wheel of whatever industrial cog you happen to be turning is as disposable as toilet paper.

But is it any different for the middle class?
It may be a little softer but the middle class is still a cog.

[Anarchic Tribes]

CP,

If you recognise that class exists, then you generally have some idea of which class you belong to. I think it's more a case of accepting the label than choosing to wear it.

Maybe, but people are choosing to wear it.

[Anarchic Tribes]

WC,

I think if you completely reject class labels then you are denying the class-ridden nature of the world we live in and this could lessen the impetus for change.

The apathy for change seems to come from those that accept their labels, not the other way. I do not reject class labels' existence, but I do not wear one myself and I wonder why you do.
Apparently some anarchists wear theirs proudly because they have worked hard for it. Have you worked hard for yours or did somebody else? Will you work hard to keep it?
There is a word for it, I shall try to remember.

[FreeLandofAIM]

Quote Fenria:
I'm middle class, and I wear the label proudly because I bust my ass doing in home care for elderly Alzhiemer's patients everyday. I earn my middle class "status", and not that I give a damn about status, but I feel that since I put in a full day of work, I don't have to feel guilty about the fact that I love a hot shower, good food, a soft bed, and a cd player in my car.

End Quote.

Well obviously you do give a damn about 'status' because otherwise you would not give yourself one to try and distinguish yourself in a hieracy system.

Are you saying therefore, that anarchists do not put in a full day's work, have a hot shower, have good, a soft bed and a cd player in my car?

Because some do, and some don't. That is choice, or circumstance.

You earn your middle class status?? So those who are not what you see as Middle Class, have to earn that status?

You are talking of hierachal orders and status, and you sound a little snobby with it.

'Oh yes I'm an anarchist, but I'm different from all of you, I have status! For I am middle class!'

That's how you come across. As someone who is trying to say he is superior, by adding a status, a label of hierachy to what you are.

Anarchism is a classless system, where nobody looks up or down at one another, but in the eye, equally.

[workerscommunes]

Anarchic said:

WC,


The apathy for change seems to come from those that accept their labels, not the other way. I do not reject class labels' existence, but I do not wear one myself and I wonder why you do.
Apparently some anarchists wear theirs proudly because they have worked hard for it. Have you worked hard for yours or did somebody else? Will you work hard to keep it?
There is a word for it, I shall try to remember.

I wouldn't say I do 'wear' a class label and if I did I wouldn't wear it proudly because I was born into a middle class family and I see no reason to be proud of something I didn't choose.

I do indeed work hard (well, studying at the moment), as I'm sure my parents and grandparents did, but so do the vast majority of people who never become 'middle class'. Therefore I disagree with the idea that a person 'earns' a middle class label through hard work and therefore one should be proud of it. Most people work hard all their lives and most people are not middle class.

Do you have a similar problem with working class anarchists who choose to wear that label with pride (not that I choose to wear mine, proudly or otherwise)? Are they helping to perpetuate capitalism by acknowledging the existence of social class?

As anarchists we are all equals, in capitalist society we are not and the language I use reflects that.