I'm not middle class, but

[Sacco & Vanzetti]

Anarchic said:

But is it any different for the middle class?
It may be a little softer but the middle class is still a cog.

Yes it is.

I thought I said that? Didn't I say that? I thought I did?

Softer, with choices, self belief, authority, a future, etc

Likewise, I can feel some sympathy for prison guards - they're locked up all day in prisons and have committed no crime. But not much sympathy and not very often.

[Anarchic Tribes]

WC,

I wouldn't say I do 'wear' a class label

I have short term memory problems too so I understand.
But you do choose to wear a class label. You have done it on the region board, and at least twice here.

I disagree with the idea that a person 'earns' a middle class label through hard work and therefore one should be proud of it

Good.

Do you have a similar problem with working class anarchists who choose to wear that label with pride (not that I choose to wear mine, proudly or otherwise)?

Too right I do.

Are they helping to perpetuate capitalism by acknowledging the existence of social class?

I've already stated that I acknowledge the existence of social class, so I'm not sure why you said that, but yes if you like.
Why? As AIM said: "Anarchism is a classless system, where nobody looks up or down at one another, but in the eye, equally."

As anarchists we are all equals, in capitalist society we are not and the language I use reflects that.

As anarchists we? ? ?
You said "I am middle class".
Oxymoron, that could've been it.

[piece of harmonics]

I first heard this joke over twenty five years ago, it was a lot shorter then, but now I am trying to be PC and maybe being a bit silly at the same time. I was brought up in a quiet middle class housing estate, my parents as far as I remember were not racist, if you were rude to anybody, you got your mouth washed with soap simple as that. and after my concern over the first from far away hot country person I ever saw, My mum pointed out to me we turn blue in the cold, and no he wasn’t burnt but came from a country that was a lot hotter than ours.

A large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts, goes into a bar and buys himself a drink. Whilst he is stood there supping his pint he notices a man of diminutive proportions is trying to get served, and is unable to attract the bartenders attention.
Being a kind man, he leans down and asks if he could help.
“Yes please” says the man of diminutive proportions “could you lift me up so I may order a drink”.
“No problem and I can do better than that; I will even buy you a drink.” Says the large man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts whilst picking up the man of diminutive proportions and placing him on a bar stool
Well they get chatting, have a good evening laughing and joking and generally getting on really well.
At the end of the evening the man of diminutive proportions, says to the large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts, “I will let you in on a secret, seeing as how kind you’ve been, really I am a leprechaun and I am going to grant you THREE wishes shh”
The large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts, just does not believe him. The man of diminutive proportions however convinces him to come outside to try out the wishes after all what’s to lose?
So they go outside and the large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts, makes his wishes.
“Firstly I would like to be incredibly fantastically rich and have money pouring out my pockets”.
So the man of diminutive proportions clicks his fingers and hey presto the large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts has money pouring out of his pockets.
“Secondly I would like a chauffer driven car with two beautiful women in it waiting to be all over me”.
So the man of diminutive proportions clicks his fingers and hey presto the large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts has a chauffer driven car with two beautiful women in it waiting to be all over him. He (the large Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts) gets into the car and turns to the man of diminutive proportions and says “You have made nearly all my dreams come true, how can I thank you?”
“Your kindness was enough thanks; so enjoy, what is your last wish?
“Well” says the Man of African origin, whose skin is the colour of ripe chestnuts,
“I would also like to be white up tight and in the groove”.
“No problem” says the man of diminutive proportions clicks his fingers and turns him into a tampon!

Oh and in relation to the thread: No your bum looks fine, thinking is good and herb tea is cool’
And as for anarchy, well whatever, I’m off to dance to the beat of my own drum, I don’t really understand anarchy

[Fenria]

Oh Christ, *smacks forehead* why do I even bother. It is obvious that you people have no idea what I'm trying to say so I won't bother reiterating it again. If you want to think I'm a damn snob because I stopped being a squatter punk 12 years ago, because, frankly, it sucks and so do the people, then you all go right ahead.

I don't know where all of you are from, but here in America there is a segment of today's youth, and yes I say youth, because I am 28 and no longer identify with these people, who seem to think that if you indulge in even the simplest pleasures of daily life like not dumpster diving your food and instead buying it from a store, you're less of an anarchist. Even though you might buy that food from a co-op and thus put much needed funds into the movement, these little jerkoffs still think you're a capitalist for not spending half your day in the damn trash can outside the store.

I'm not down for that anymore. It was all good fun when I was 16, but today I'd rather not scrape moldy bits off of my every meal if I don't have to, and because I work, I don't have to. That's all I've been trying to say. You all have twisted it into this b.s. about me thinking I'm better than you, and this is exactly then same attitude that turns me off being directly involved in the movement: the attitude that I'm some sort of an elite because I work and spend my money on basic pleasures instead sitting on my ass complaining all day, eating rotten food, and living in some rathole with broken toilets where people crap in the corners of the rooms. Been there, done that, over it.

I used the words "middle class" because, guess what? Whether you like it or not, this world is full of labels.....even down to our very names. People use labels to identify others, and not always in a bad way. If I'm describing someone to you, am I going to say, "yeah, the guy with blond hair"? No! There are millions of guys with blond hair. All you would say in return is "which guy with blond hair"? That gets us nowhere. Now if I give you his name, you have a much clearer picture of whom I'm talking about. I've just used a label, his name, to make life easier for everyone involved.

Granted, labels are also used in very evil ways to be sure, but the human race is a race that labels. Deal with it.

What is middle class? I have no idea. I don't really care. All I know is I'm not a squatter anymore, and I'm damn happy about it. That then leaves you to come up with the appropriate label for me. Do your best lol.

[FreeLandofAIM]

Quote Fenria: this is exactly then same attitude that turns me off being directly involved in the movement: the attitude that I'm some sort of an elite because I work and spend my money on basic pleasures instead sitting on my ass complaining all day, eating rotten food, and living in some rathole with broken toilets where people crap in the corners of the rooms. Been there, done that, over it.
End Quote

Yes, of course, all of us here do indeed sit on our Arses complaining, eat rotten food, and live in ratholes with broken toilets, and let people take a shit in the corner.

The reason why this is is simply because we are not classed as middle class, or do not call ourselves such.

Therefore (Of course!!) those who don't live in ratholes with broken toilets can be termed as middle class.

Because only the middle class like to live in places that are not ratholes and where people don't take a shit in the corner of the room

All those other anarchists not middle class live in such places, because they like to! Not out of circurmstance, But out of choice!

Well, it can be either or both.

If you seriously believe that you are middle class merely because you expect some way of a decent living, then that worries me.

Everybody wants a decent life.



Quote Fenria:
What is middle class? I have no idea. I don't really care. All I know is I'm not a squatter anymore, and I'm damn happy about it. That then leaves you to come up with the appropriate label for me. Do your best lol. End Quote

How does Snob sound. Seeing as you don't mind labels....

[workerscommunes]

I don't really think there's much more I can say. Everyone here has their own definition of what the words 'middle class' mean. Some consider it a fairly neutral description of a particular socio-economic group generally agreed to consist of those in the self-employed, managerial, clerical, proffessional or semi-proffessional job sectors (myself included), to others it seems to be loaded with all sorts of connotations and unwritten rules of appropriate usage which I do not fully understand.

Anarchic said:

WC,

I have short term memory problems too so I understand.
But you do choose to wear a class label. You have done it on the region board, and at least twice here.

I have said that I am middle class (which I am, if you accept my above definition) but I hardly think that constitutes 'wearing' it as a label. Maybe it is, I don't know, but I can't figure out why these two little words seem to be pissing you off so much. I'll stop using them if you like but I don't see how that will bring us any closer to a classless society (I would be interested to hear how, if you think it would).

Anarchic said:

As AIM said: "Anarchism is a classless system, where nobody looks up or down at one another, but in the eye, equally."

Exactly. That's why I said "As anarchists we are equal". But we do not live in an anarchist society. We live in a highly stratified capitalist society with (in England anyway) three or four social classes. We all fit into the system somewhere regardless of whether we use the terminology or not.

Anarchic said:

As anarchists we? ? ?
You said "I am middle class".
Oxymoron, that could've been it.

Yes I am an anarchist. Yes I am middle class. That is not an oxymoron. A 'statist anarchist' would be an oxymoron as the words describe two opposing political positions but 'middle class anarchist' isn't as the first part describes class origin and the second political orientation. That would just refer to someone from a middle class background who believes in the principles of anarchism (like me). It's no more of an oxymoron than 'working class socialist' as far as I can see.

I am against social class but still use some of the associated terminology as I know of no other way to describe certain ideas and concepts. I am also opposed to the idea of nationhood and the state but I would still say I was British as that's the only way I can describe my geographical origin. You can't possibly argue that 'British anarchist' is an oxymoron because we are opposed to the nation-state can you?

A lot of this seems to be semantic hairsplitting. Nothing wrong with that but we're basically saying the same thing using different words.

[allers]

we are fuckin far away from a class/labelsless society..
i think respect should do that.

[Fenria]

Typical, now I'm a snob because I like to take a shower. Too funny. You people are the same people who turned me off the movement when I was a teenager. Nice work at unity guys. With this kind of division, it's no wonder we never get anything done.

And another thing, you guys really need to stop taking everything so personally. Have I ever once said that any of what I'm talking about applies to you? NO! So stop pretending that it does, unwad your panties, and chill the hell out.

[Anarchic Tribes]

Fenria,
do you know what the word snob means?
As young anarchists read your condescending words with disbelief, you wonder why anyone takes them personally.

unwad your panties, and chill the hell out.

This is your idea of respect?

You people are the same people who turned me off the movement when I was a teenager.

Strange why anyone should take this shit personally.
So you turned off from the movement when you were a teenager. You are now a 28 year old middle class snob that has no respect for young anarchists. Is it any wonder they turned you off. *Smacks Fenria's forehead*

[Fenria]

Anarchic said:

Fenria,
do you know what the word snob means?
As young anarchists read your condescending words with disbelief, you wonder why anyone takes them personally.



This is your idea of respect?



Strange why anyone should take this shit personally.
So you turned off from the movement when you were a teenager. You are now a 28 year old middle class snob that has no respect for young anarchists. Is it any wonder they turned you off. *Smacks Fenria's forehead*

Alright this is my last post here because this is getting really old fast. You think my words are condescending? Fine. Even though they weren't meant to be, they were nothing more than my reasons behind certain feelings and were not aimed at anyone here.

I will never change or apologize for the fact that I think that "lifestyle" anarchists who choose to squat, choose to live in filth, choose to stink, choose to panhandle off working class people whom they then turn around and insult, choose to be in a commercial or exploit their appearance in some way for money, even though they talk shit about anyone else who does it, are chock full of shit.

You want to make a difference in this world? Go be a human shield in Iraq, go work with Doctors without Borders, go give the everyday man positive reasons to get behind the anarchist movement, go start up your own no kill shelter at your own home like I've done. This is how you change the world, not sitting around in some abandoned building, dreaming up new ways to vandalize someone else's property and smelling as bad as you possibly can just to see how many stares you get when you walk down the street.

That is juvenile and asinine. It is not anarchy. It is not a movement.

I have plenty of respect for young anarchists. I just have absolutely no respect for "lifestyle" anarchists and people who live in squalor by choice and are so bitter that the rest of the world hasn't beaten down a path to the squat door to join them.

If you come across the average man on the street and say to him, hey I've got a movement to tell you about that is all about improving your way of life through positivity, solidarity, and community, you might very well get that man to listen to what you have to say.

On the other hand, if you come across that same man on the street and you saunter up to him smelling like a public toilet and begin to tell him how much of a prick he is because he wants to live in a house, take a shower, and eat decent food, he'll tell you to get lost, and so would I.

Of couse you won't understand what I'm trying to say, so I'll just leave it at this and stop wasting my breath. And as for your little slapping comment on the end there, it is far too juvenile for me to respond to, save to say that I really feel very sorry for you if that is the kind of argument that you have to resort to. Grow up.

[Anarchic Tribes]

oh ok then

[FreeLandofAIM]

Fenria, by your own definition, you are a 'lifestyle' anarchist yourself, describing yourself as middle class and enjoying warm showers and a CD player in your car.

I really don't think that criticising other's lifestyles for having a 'lifestyle' when you have your own self described 'lifestyle' works out, because each has their own, through choice or circumstance.

Anarchy is the revolutionary idea that no one is more qualified than you to decide how your life should be lived.

Now, I have not criticised the way you live, but what I have criticised is how you call yourself 'middle class' tagging a hierachy status to yourself.

Anything that provokes reaction through the way it is presented, is a movement, be it via an arts movement, a political movement, or a reactionary movement.

And you can walk up to someone on the street smelling of your definition of public toilets and tell them about a movement, and they may indeed tell you to piss off.

But also, you can walk up to someone not smelling of your definition of public toilets, and tell them about a movement, and they might tell you to piss off as well.

Smell, appearance does not matter to a person who is willing to listen unpredejuced to a great idea.

It is up to the listener whether he/she wishes to listen or not.

Smell, appearance matters little.

It's what you say that counts, and what you do to follow it up.

[claptonpond]

FreeLandofAIM said:

Fenria, by your own definition, you are a 'lifestyle' anarchist yourself, describing yourself as middle class and enjoying warm showers and a CD player in your car.

AIM, I think you misunderstand the term 'lifestyle anarchism' (as people often do). Check out the Bookchin article I linked to in the Albert vs Zerzan thread.

You kinda missed the point of this bit, I think:

On the other hand, if you come across that same man on the street and you saunter up to him smelling like a public toilet and begin to tell him how much of a prick he is because he wants to live in a house, take a shower, and eat decent food, he'll tell you to get lost, and so would I.

It's not so much the smelling like a public toilet that's the problem, more the telling him he's a prick for not wanting to live the same lifestyle as you. That's what makes it lifestyle anarchism.

[Anarchic Tribes]

It's not so much the smelling like a public toilet that's the problem, more the telling him he's a prick for not wanting to live the same lifestyle as you.

Like Fenria does you mean?

[claptonpond]

Anarchic said:

Like Fenria does you mean?

Yeah, kinda. Although in Fenria's case it sounds more like overdefensiveness due to having been slagged off once too often for her 'middle-class' lifestyle by dirty squatter lifestylers, than a belief that her lifestyle is revolutionary or superior.