I'm not middle class, but

[Anarchic Tribes]

does my bum look big in this?

[Anarchic Tribes]

but seriously, I started this thread because I wanted to have a rant about sexist feminists. Unfortunately (maybe), I'm stuck already. It's just a little thing, but would somebody help me here, by explaining what/how is a middle-class anarchist.

with thanks, love and respect

AT

[Fenria]

I'm middle class, and I wear the label proudly because I bust my ass doing in home care for elderly Alzhiemer's patients everyday. I earn my middle class "status", and not that I give a damn about status, but I feel that since I put in a full day of work, I don't have to feel guilty about the fact that I love a hot shower, good food, a soft bed, and a cd player in my car.

I can't stand people who try to tell me that they are somehow more "hardcore" than I am because they choose to suffer. Well good for you, but I can tell you from personal experience that suffering sucks fat donkey balls to the 10th power. If that makes me somehow less "about the cause", then I really don't care.

I think that the young anarchists of today are so wrapped up in this "poor me" self pity bit, "watch while I suffer for the cause" b.s. that they've forgotten what the fight is truly about. The fight is not to hate the middle class, the fight is to become the middle class, to have a good job and have your labor contribution be respected, to be able to provide good and healthy food for your family, and to enjoy life the same way the elites do without having to turn into gluttons to do it.

If you look at any of the anarchist uprisings in third world countries over the years, the common thread is that the people all wanted better lives, not to continuously suffer and have the world pat them on the back for suffering. If I'm less of an anarchist because I think that unnecessary self imposed suffering to make yourself look "hardcore" is lamer than a gangrenous leg, then so be it.

Beggars can't be choosers, it's true, but workers can be choosers. I'm a worker. I'm middle class, and I'm also a leftist, and once you get out of spoiled bratt "I'm going to go sew the anarchy patch I bought at Hot Topic for $5 on my leather bomber jacket" America, you will find that most leftists are like me.

[theyellowspot]

Anarchic said:

It's just a little thing, but would somebody help me here, by explaining what/how is a middle-class anarchist.

i think "middle-class" is a silly broad term. it's not much different than lumping all men together, or all brown folks together, or all joggers together. you can be "middle-class" (i suppose meaning you fall into a certain income bracket, can you work and be middle-class, or are you stuck in working class category?), and still be fighting the good fight. or you can be lumped into the lower/working-class and be fighting the bad fight. i would say that what's more important is how you go about maintaining your status. obviously if you maintain your middle-class status by fucking people over every day, there's a problem. but it's entirely possible (in most Western countries at least) to maintain middle-class status by helping people every day.

[Anarchic Tribes]

I'm a worker. I'm middle class, and I'm also a leftist

Fenria
Well done you! Wouldn't also happen to be a feminist would you?

I can't stand people who try to tell me that they are somehow more "hardcore" than I am because they choose to suffer.

Perhaps you could learn to be more tolerant then.

I think that the young anarchists of today are so wrapped up in this "poor me" self pity bit, "watch while I suffer for the cause" b.s. that they've forgotten what the fight is truly about. The fight is not to hate the middle class, the fight is to become the middle class,

First thing is, the only hate around here seems to be coming from your direction. Second, if 'the fight' is to become the middle class, you've won.
I'm not actually sure whether to take your post seriously or if you're just messing around, but anyway, if you think as you say about 'young anarchists of today', what are you? A ye olde anarchist of yesteryear? No, I remember, you're middle class. Sorry, terrible memory from years of having been shot to bits as a result of all the suffering in order to be hardcore.

If you look at any of the anarchist uprisings in third world countries over the years, the common thread is that the people all wanted better lives, not to continuously suffer and have the world pat them on the back for suffering.

And what's that got to do with being middle class (apart fron the obvious wordly middle class back patters)?

Just asking questions. People have to ask questions in order to learn. You'd know that if you were a parent of suffering hardcore young anarchists.

[Anarchic Tribes]

i think "middle-class" is a silly broad term. it's not much different than lumping all men together, or all brown folks together, or all joggers together.

Yellow Spot,
I disagree, I think it's very different.

you can be "middle-class", and still be fighting the good fight. or you can be lumped into the lower/working-class and be fighting the bad fight.

Or you could be middle class and fighting the bad fight, or working class and fighting the good fight? Depends who and how you look at it?
Or is it that the middle class are fighting the good fight because they must think that in order to stay middle class, and the working/lower(?) class are fighting the bad fight because they have to deal with reality?

i would say that what's more important is how you go about maintaining your status.

Now I'm lost.

it's entirely possible (in most capitalist countries at least) to maintain middle-class status by helping people every day.

And it's entirely possible in anarchic tribes to maintain a classless society by helping people everyday. What's with the middle class status maintenance program?

[theyellowspot]

Anarchic said:

Or you could be middle class and fighting the bad fight, or working class and fighting the good fight?

absolutely.

Or is it that the middle class are fighting the good fight because they must think that in order to stay middle class, and the working/lower(?) class are fighting the bad fight because they have to deal with reality?

i'm not sure what you're getting at here, but what i'm trying to say is that lumping huge groups of people together isn't usually a good thing to do. not all working/lower class folks are fighting the good or bad fight, and the same goes for what gets called the middle class.

And it's entirely possible in anarchic tribes to maintain a classless society by helping people everyday. What's with the middle class status maintenance program?

what's with it? i don't know, people generally try to keep what they have, and get more while they're at it. i'm not saying it's a good or bad thing either way. i'm pretty far removed from what the middle class in the US is, and i'm not trying to raise myself to that level. i was just pointing out what other's are doing. Fenria maintains their middle class status by going to work every day, i maintain my low class status by rarely working, and living on the cheap. as for maintaining a classless society, i believe you're right about that. i never said otherwise.

[Anarchic Tribes]

I never said you said otherwise. I didn't disagree with anything except the joggers bit. Just asking so as to get more understanding. Why would someone that believed in a classless society do anything in order to maintain any class status?

not all working/lower class folks are fighting the good or bad fight, and the same goes for what gets called the middle class.

I was talking about anarchists.

i don't know, people generally try to keep what they have, and get more while they're at it. i'm not saying it's a good or bad thing either way. i'm pretty far removed from what the middle class in the US is, and i'm not trying to raise myself to that level. i was just pointing out what other's are doing.

By 'others' do you mean american middle class anarchists?
Raising yourself to that level. That's funny:)

[workerscommunes]

I would describe myself as middle class because that's the label which best describes my socio-economic background. My parents were teachers and social workers and I am studying at University. I'm neither particularily proud nor ashamed of that label and see no reason why I should be. I'm still a 'worker' as opposed to an 'owner' and certainly have no intention of exploiting anyone for personal gain.

I see no problem with declaring myself a middle class anarchist as I believe in libertarian socialism and happen to come from a middle class background, as I'm sure many anarchists do. It is important to recognise that the 'middle class' is not one homogenous whole but contains many different groups. It would be hypocritical perhaps for rich senior managers, stock brokers or businessmen to declare themselves anarchists as they attained middle class status by exploiting others and contribute nothing of worth to society. They are not workers. However nurses, teachers, doctors, social workers, vets, architects and the like are all middle class and are essential to any society (although no more so than an engineer or farm labourer but capitalist societies do not recognise this fact). These groups do not exploit anyone and, in the case of nurses or routine office workers for example, are often exploited themselves. They are workers and their class interests therefore lie more with socialism than capitalism.

I can't imagine why anyone wouldn't want the non-capitalist elements within the middle classes to be in support of anarchism. Historicaly many famous anarchists have been middle and even upper class: look at Kropotkin and Tolstoy for example. The superficial split between manual and non-manual workers is a classic case of divide-and-conquer and one of the more successful examples of this in action.

[Anarchic Tribes]

The workers are the middle class, and the non-workers are the working class?
Teachers, social workers and nurses are middle class? Vets are essential for society? Middle class anarchists?

Possibly I don't know the meaning of 'middle class'. Possibly I don't know the meaning of anarchist. Possibly I came across as offensive (judging by the ongoing defence from/for the 'middle class anarchists'). Possibly I should jack my job in and go back to bed. Possibly I should get out of bed and go and get a job. Possibly, but I don't think so.

WC,
after reading your last statement it occurred to me that where I wrote "what/how is a middle-class anarchist", people have taken this to mean that I think anarchists must be working/lower(?) class. That's not what I meant at all.
But I do see a problem there. You have this tiny minority of people who are fighting a class war for a classless society, yet within even that tiny minority there is another war of class. Is it any wonder, little changes.

[Sacco & Vanzetti]

Anarchic said:

does my bum look big in this?

Yes.

(But I love you because of it, not in spite of it.)

[workerscommunes]

Anarchic said:

The workers are the middle class, and the non-workers are the working class?

Not sure where you're getting that from...

Anarchic said:

You have this tiny minority of people who are fighting a class war for a classless society, yet within even that tiny minority there is another war of class. Is it any wonder, little changes.

Well put.

May I ask what you originaly meant by your question "what/how is a middle class anarchist?" as I seem to have misunderstood.

[Anarchic Tribes]

WC, I'm getting that from the middle class here on this thread being workers and the working/lower(?) class not. What class you put the unemployed in?

I asked the original question of "what/how is a middle class anarchist?" because I have no concept/understanding of the term. I wondered what one was.
A classless society can only be made up of classless people. How can people fighting for such a thing wear classist labels?

[theyellowspot]

Anarchic said:

What class you put the unemployed in?

A classless society can only be made up of classless people. How can people fighting for such a thing wear classist labels?

I would put the unemployed in the unemployed class if i was forced to label people. but i think that people can fight for things while others put labels on them like "middle-class". i am far from middle-class, but that doesn't mean i can't recognize the good that people labeled as middle-class can do. and i would emphasize the difference WC pointed out between people labeled middle-class who exploit others (managers, owners, etc.) and people who would be labeled middle-class because of their economic status, but go to work everyday to be exploited by those bosses, owners, etc.

[Anarchic Tribes]

Ok forget about the unemployed class. Irrelevant distraction.

but i think that people can fight for things while others put labels on them like "middle-class".

Who are the 'others'? The people that claim to be doing the 'fighting' are the ones doing the labelling, of themselves, as middle class. And I'm not dissing the 'good' that people labelled as middle class can do. And no need to emphasize what WC said, I understood first time. What I don't understand is why/how someone who is fighting for a classless society would choose to wear a classist label.